Bought a demo F-1800R II for 1399. What a steal- and the bass! Okay, maybe it's a little overkill for my 140 square foot living room, but I live for excess. Turn it up and watch the plants move about- this is good fun. I wish only that it wasn't such a behemouth. Lot's of rythm, plenty of slam. Best dought I've spent.

Ok, I have to admit, this is the best sub ever built! I have gone all out on my home theater. To top it all off I bought 4 of them, positioned them in all four corners of my 30x22 room. I only have one problem..... they break too many dishes!

I agree the 18" Velodyne is a great subwoofer but I've heard better bassfrom Legacy Focus speakers (six 12" bass drivers total) set up about four
feet out from the room corners. The Focus speakers reminded me that most
bass in in the two octaves from 50 Hz. to 200 Hz. -- not the two octaves
from 12.5 Hz. to 50 Hz. where one Velodyne 18" sub located in the corner of
a room is unbeatable. Actually, for most rooms, a 15" or 12" Velodyne is
satisfactory -- use the 18" version for large rooms (over 500 square feet)
only, unless money is no object.

Performance: Simply put, the Velodyne FSR-18 (and the older F-1800RII) is a fantastic performer. There are few subs available ANYWHERE, custom made or otherwise, that can exceed it's performance in extension, output, and distortion. Period.
Price: Ya, it's expensive. Premium price for a premium product. (But hell, they sell amplifiers for $2400 that - relatively speaking of course - give you less improvement over a $600 amp than you get going from a $600 sub to this one.) You choose where you need the performance. With subs, $800-$1200 get's you most of the way there, but this one takes you all the way.

On TV's comments: I generally agree, but I do allow for a little "artistic licence" from the other's reviews since this IS an AWESOME product. (Stereophile's TJN has said that it was the best subwoofer he's EVER had in his home theater.)

Ya, 120dB at 0.3% THD might be a BIT of an exageration, but also realize that the "Audio" review (and TN's review) involves different testing situations. (Pulse vs. steady state sine vs. whatever else.) Velodyne's servo circuit works A LOT better (like most servos) in steady state (ie. sine wave), than in transient conditions (TN's technique). BTW, have YOU tested the sub?!? Hmmm?!?

> -3dB down at 12hz?.......what, in a coffin? In a typical room,
> the VEL18 is down about 16dBs"

"Secrets of Home Theater & High Fidelity" (http://www.sdinfo.com/) tested the F-1800RII and achieved a flat IN ROOM response to 10Hz. (Remember that rooms boost bass at +12dB/octave below the room's lowest mode, which is usually 20-30Hz.) Again, have YOU tested it?!?

> windows breaking?....get a life

Technically, it could happen (but the room would have to be pretty well sealed though). Perhaps a little artistic licence...

> 4 VEL 18, in each corner of a room?.......good job, they'll spend
> much of their time cancelling each other out.

Not necessarily. It all depends on the room and it's dimensions. M&K recommends 2 subs in different corners of the room in some setups. It all depends.

> of course the HSU-RESEARCH TN20 matches the VEL18's performance,
> for about half the cost.

On what do you base this (having never HEARD the Velodyne)? Have you seen technical reviews of both? By the same reviewer? Or are you just comparing specs? Personally, I haven't heard the TN-1220, but from talking with Poh Ser Hsu at Hsu Research, and seeing the "Audio" review of the 12V a few years back, I doubt that it has quite the extension (below 20 Hz the HSU subs roll off VERY fast because they're ported) and low distortion of the FSR-18. (Don't get me wrong, from what I've seen, the HSU 12VA is a great product in it's own right, but it's not quite up to the big Velodyne.)

So TV, just relax a little. These folks are just REALLY excited about a GREAT product. And try and do a little more research before you rant about someone else's BS, otherwise YOU might be the one spewing the BS...

Good Sub excellent for movies I agree. filled my desire to hear an 18" sub on my system. I would prefer a smaller powered sub maybe a 12" or 15" this one was just to sloppy, though the greasy salesman promised otherwise. If your stereo is surround sound pro-logic this is for you. If you listen to music at all a smaller sub will perform much better (the Carver sunfire) or the 12" or even 15" velodyne. (I.E. Listen to metallica's one you'll see what I'm talking about). I don't want to get involved in the middle of any arguments, but what you see hear is the conflict between audiophile's and bassheads.

The new offering from Cerwin Vega, a friend is in the R/D (I heard a prototype) delivered much better response for all types of music and had identical response for the deepest ("crunch at the beginning of t2 when the robot steps on the skull") bass. The speaker incorped a 18" Stroker offspring and a collaboration of a Runco designed 2400 watt amplifier. I thought the 18" Velodyne was heavy, phew the vega clocked in at 200 pounds plus!!! They promise to keep it around 2K, he says, I'll update the info when he gives it to me.


All Proceed equipment
All JPS Superconductor connections
Martin Logan Main Speakers

Never thought I would have to eventually bare my soul to the rest of the world.Last year "97" before the holidays my first F1800RII arrives ocean freighted over with our other imported items. I have been dreaming for years about owning what many consider the best sub in the world. I plugged it in to a step up transformer, turned it on and the let out a noise like it had expoloded. I wqas deafened by the noise since I was only about 4' away. I first sent back the amp. It came back and then realized the woofer itself was junk. So I air freighted the whole unit back. They sent the shop I bought it from a new and improved unit. It finally arrives and many months waiting. It worked for about a months and then goes dead, silently. Send back amp. They claim they have been having reliabilty problems. It just came back and now find out the woofer has an open circuit. To get any info out of Velodyne you must be very patient. Since we have discovered we have an open circuit they have not returned phone calls or faxes.
I have 2 subs for the late 80's and equipmet from the 70's that's still working fine and has never let me down. I enjoyed the hell out of the Velodyne while it worked. It just makes me even more angrier while I wait on their next move.
I now have over 2 grand into something that I got for a deal at $1,600.00.
Unit while it worked was awesome. Their almost total lack of customer support sucks so bad they should not even be in business!!! Think twice before you buy a piece that's under engineered and a total pain in the ass when it goes T.U.
Minus 10 is what they deserve. Velodyne please wake up!!!

I'm not sure how all this got started, but I just spent time evaluating the Velodyne and the KEF TDM 45B. I bought the KEF due to its ability to do the same job (15 inch 300 watt volume, thx and phase controls) for less $$. It is home for $1100.00 and performs like a champion.
TV and Fieldy can keep their arguement to themselves!!

This is the single most amazing audio instrument I have ever heard.Sorry Sunfire, Mirage, B&W, M&K, and NHT, but you don't have anything
that come close to my F1800RII. This sets the reference standard in
extension (in room, -3db @12hz, flat from 16hz-63hz), cleanness (.3% distortion at 20hz @120db!!!)
tightness, and overall musicality. I love organ music, and Jean Gillou's
Organ transcription of Mussorgsky's _Pictures at an Exhibition_ brought
tears to my eyes. It was that good.
Movies are fun, too. This thing has no problem playing 15db over THX Reference level all day. Although my ears have a problem with that extreme level of loudness...
Anyway, going thru the standards, Jurassic Park literally scared my dog so much he jumped when the floor shook during the T-rex attack,
T2 became a whole level scarier, Crimson Tide enveloped me in the underwater world of submarines, and Stargate made my ears pop. I can't give this a high enough rating.

This subwoofer truly is amazing. In the last year I have tried Velodynes F-1200 & Paradigms Servo-15 in my home. Neither of these two subs had the natural smooth sound of the F-1800RII, they didn't have the sheer power either. I am simply amazed how fast & responsive an 18 inch driver can be. I really can't say enough good thing about this sub. This sub is a lot of fun!!! Even at $1999.99 I still consider it a bargain.

I see that several individuals here comment on my review/comparison of the Velodyne F1800 and Hsu TN1220 in a past issue of The Sensible Sound.
I will state that the Hsu is subjectively very close to the big Velodyne at 20 Hz, although the latter can play a bit louder in the 30-Hz range. The Velodyne does have a bit less distortion with test tones, but only if you listen from up close. With musical program material, they are nearly identical, even with their radically different crossovers in action. With an outboard crossover, they would be very close, indeed.

There are several variables to consider with these two subs. Besides financial considerations, much will depend on whether you have room in your rack for the Hsu amp (the one I tested has been replaced by a somewhat larger and heavier 500-watt unit) and/or if you can fit either unit into a specific wall or corner space. The Velodyne also requires a cable run to and from the unit if you want to use its own crossover, although only a single shielded lead will be needed if you use an outboard crossover. All the Hsu requires for the run to the sub itself is a speaker wire. The Velodyne is also considerably bigger in terms of footprint, but the Hsu does extend upward a bit more than 4 feet.

A closer competitor for the F1800 would be the Hsu HRSW12Va, which has one or two dB more maximum output down low than the TN1220, making it a performance match for the big F1800, at a bit more than half the price of the TN1220 with the new amp. Well, the F1800 is now history and the new FSR-18 has slightly more output but also costs about twice the price of the HRSW12Va/500-watt-amp combination, which costs a tad more than the TN1220 combination.

If you have the cash, the big Velodyne is a great buy; however, if you are cash strapped you can get performance that is roughly equal by going for a Hsu. You give up a bit of cosmetic slickness, but not much else, and under some conditions the Hsu is easier to position in your listening room. Another serious sub to consider is the Paradigm Servo 15, which I review in the current issue of the magazine. It is competitive with any of these subs, and has a price point about halfway between them.

Those wanting to learn more about subs and speaker systems, and audio-video in general, might want to look over my latest book, The Home Theater Companion (Schirmer, 1997, 437 pages). A review of it can be found at:

HTTP://www.ambiophonics.org/ferstler.htm

Howard Ferstler
ferstle@ibm.net