Extremely detailed sound. Hear EVERY nuance in the music. Very well built

Maybe too much clarity, or "brightness" Not sure---having a "love/hate" relationship with them right now.

I have been living with these 2.3's for a little over one year now, and continue to go through this love/hate relationship with them.

I listen to Jazz and classical---and every so often a little rock. It took forever to set up properly to get the best out of them and I'm still not sure I have achieved the right placement. If the recording is good then things seem ok---but put in a questionable source and you do hear every finite detail, which in many cases is too bright and not appealing. I spent an inordinate time listening to other speakers before making this choice, and am starting to wonder if I would have been better off with a British speaker like Pro Ac. Again I'm just not sure.

Have been spending a LOT of time over the holidays listening, and perhaps I'm just burnt out right now....but again I am questioning my purchase. I use these with the Krell KAV 300 i, and a Rega Planet CD player.

Am I being too analytical or should I just sit back and enjoy those wonderful moments when everything sounds just right?

Similar Products Used:

Also have an old pair of Spendor SP1 set up in basement. Use while exercising.

Very alive and open sounding, great imaging and soundstage, accurate voice reproduction. Great customer support.

HYPER sensitive to room placement and room acoustics, a bit bright with some recordings, not the deepest bass.

I will have to start out saying I could not believe how disappointed I was when I brought these speakers home. I did alot of direct comparisons with the speakers listed above and was convinced that they blew these competitors away. The B&Ws were too muffled. The Martin Logans were great at reproducing Kathleen Battle but struggled with 10,000 maniacs or anything with Bass. I brought the Theils home, connected them to the equiptment listed below and they sounded very mediocre.

I looked up a few past reviews on Audioreview.com and Audiogon.com and found some posts on the importance of room placement and accoustics. It took a long time, but they are finally dialed in and sound great. Room placement is absolutely critical to enjoying these speakers. It does not make a little difference.....it makes a HUGE difference.

My room is approx. 21 X 13 with many windows. I tried many combinations but I ended up with the speakers 24 inches away from the short wall and 18 inches from the side walls. The ideal listening location is almost exactly at an equallateral triangle location or just inside of this. When listeing at this point, you cannot believe there is not a middle chanel speaker. Vocal magically appear where there is no speaker at all. My listening couch is just beyond this point and you do not get the same imaging at low volumes but crank it up and Kathleen Battle enters the center of the room. The speakers are particularly good at reproducing live recordings.

You also need to be careful about "live" rooms. Most listening rooms at audio stores have better acoustics than our homes. They might sound a bit bright in a non carpeted room with alot of windows. Just closing some drapes made a big difference in my room.

These speakers also need power. My Class A tube Monoblocks put out 220W each so power is no problem but I have been warned you need at least 100W to drive these babies. I would definately test your amp with the speakers before laying down your dead presidents.

Once proper setup is achieved, these are GREAT speakers that will provide years of enjoyment. They sound open and alive. They excel at voice and classical instrument reporduction. The finish is first rate (a spousal requirement) and they are astetically pleasing in most environments. There are updated drivers available for older 2.3s which some say make a big difference and some say make no difference. Theil says they are mostly for loud rock and roll. They cost about $300 plus installation. I will eventually get them and let you know if I notice any differnce.

jts

Footnote: Even thought I bought these speakers used, I received some of the best customer service imaginable from Shari at Thiel. Thank you.

My system is using the following components:
Sonic Frontiers Power 3 monoblocks (tube), Proceed CDP as a CD player and digital preamp, 4 foot long D.H. Labs Q-10 Silver Sonic Speaker cable and 1 meter D.H. Labs Silver Sonic RCA style interconnects.

I will be experimenting with balanced interconnects and spikes in the near future and will update my post with my findings.

Similar Products Used:

Thiel 3.6, B&W 803 and 804, Martin Logan Aerius

I used to have a Thiel 2.3 for 9 months. I use Ayre K3 + V3II, but the sound was just too bright and the tonal balance is too "lightweight". I once heard the 2.3 driven by Mark Levinson 33H, and it sounded pretty good.
I think this speaker is very revealing about your front end - better to use really "warm" sounding amps and CDs and cable.

In my system with the Ayre, I'll only give it a 2.5.

Driven by a Mark 33H, I'll give it a 4.
Driven by a Musical Fidelity X-200, I'll only give it a 1.5.

Clean, airy mids and highs, tight bass, attractive cabinet

Doesnt go as 'deep' as I would like

I finally got the Thiel's after a long time of changing my mind between the B&W 604's, 803's, and the Thiels. The B&W 804's sounded slightly better, the 604's slightly worse. Seeing as the Thiel's are priced right between these two models, the decision was finally made.

After break in , the speakers sounded amazing. Playing light jazz revealed airy, sweet guitars that totally were relaxing. Bass was tight and punchy, and the highs were bright without being grating or irritating. Setup was much easier than with my Viennas, which these were replacing.

Efficiency, while good, was not great. These puppies require a decent amp to get quality out of them. With my stock Yamaha integrated 100wpc amp, they sounded flat. After pulling the Krell out of my bedroom for these, the sound really opened up. And after they were broken in, they sounded just fine at low volume levels.

Compared to the B&W 803's, the mids were not quite as clean, and the bass was not quite as deep. Furthermore, soundstaging, while excellent, was not quite as transparent as with the 803's. But overall, these speakers were so similar sounding, and at a little more than half the price of the B&W's, were the much better value. A great speaker.

Similar Products Used:

B&W 604, B&W 803

Fantasticaly revealing: music has a presence and weight I've heard with no other speaker; Natural, coherent sound; Gripping dynamics; Excellent fit and finish

Fantastically revealing: requires very high quality upstream components, powerful amplifier, well damped room, and quality recordings (can sound bright and reverberant otherwise); Soundstage could be bigger; Binding posts substandard.

[ This is a preliminary review and solicitation for comments based on extended auditioning at dealers, note that I haven't had a chance to hear them in my home yet. ]

I have been very taken with the Thiel CS 2.3 in my search for my first "proper" high end music system. These speakers are fantastically revealing and under the right circumstances come the closest I've heard to live music by a long margin (even against much more expensive speakers). I find that the Thiels are more musical and natural than anything else I've heard, bass sounds like "weight" integral to the music rather than a "sound" emenating from the speakers. The Thiel CS 2.3 was also able to bring the best out of components several times its cost and could keep up with several system upgrades (well beyond a $10K total system which I am targeting).

Detail is at least as good as anything else I've heard. Dynamics are fantastic: startling, detailed, and gripping (despite smaller bass driver than other speakers I've auditioned, it has more punch in the stomach and "loads" a room with bass better than many larger designs I've heard). Midrange is fantastically pure, I haven't heard the human voice sound so natural and involving. Most importantly, this sound was achieved in a very neutral, coherent, and natural way (at times, I found the Magneplanar and Martin Logan to sound "effectsy" as if "air" were being added around the music or soundstaging stretched). The Thiels sounded very good in any reasonable position, but careful setup (well away from walls) was required to get the speakers to disappear the soundstage to really bloom.

I listened with a standard set of personal reference material used for all speakers, roughly 1/3rd each classical, jazz, and rock/pop and including both audiophile and decidely more mainstream quality recordings. Some prominent tracks used: Dave Brubeck, Blue Rondo a la Turk (Gold Remaster); Tchaikovsky, 1812 Overture (CSO/DG); Save Ferris, Come On Eileen; Wynton Marsalis, Haydn Concerto in E (London Concert); Joe Satriani, Flying in a Blue Dream; Sarah McGlaughlin, Building a Mystery; Beethoven, Moonlight Sonata (Serkin/CBS); and James Taylor, Gaia.

However, I have found that if you don't have proper upstream components (powerful amp, not-bright CD player), room (well damped), and source material (high quality recording, minimal processing/"enahancement") the sound can be relentless, excessively reverberant, and fatiguing. I don't think that the speakers themselves are "bright" as some previous reviewers have stated, but they certainly do nothing to ameliorate a bright signal. I don't mind the component requirement (I plan on purchasing qualified components at the same time), but the room and material requirements do concern me. In particular, I have found that the majority of my piano recordings tend to be at least somewhat "clangy" and are fatiguing after a while. The Serkin recording of Beethoven Sonatas, though admittedly a bit on the harsh side to start with, was positively unlistenable (the Plenetev Chopin collection on Deutsche Grammophon, which I consider a good recording, was still difficult at times). Flying in a Blue Dream (instrumental electric guitar, quality recording) was also a tough listen.

I am rating the Thiels a 4 overall: though they have high points above all speakers I've heard below 2x the price, their sound on less than ideal material and picky nature for room/components/recordings leaves some room for improvement, IMO. I give them a 5 for value: though $3600 is not cheap, they can perform with many much more expensive speakers, are capable in larger rooms, have involving bass down low, are built fantastically (excepting binding posts), and will perform with the best in source components. I strongly recommend you listen to these speakers, but beware that your opinion of them may be based on associated conditions and musical preferences.

Associated components were primarily Bryston 4B-ST amplifier (250Wpc), Bryston BP-20 preamp, and Arcam Alpha 9/CD23/Rotel 971 cd players (I think some improvement on brightness can come from better cd, I'm looking at CAL or Naim mostly). I've listened in multiple rooms and heard better sound in more well damped rooms. I've also tried 2.3s with Pass Aleph 1.2 (great sound, out of my price range) and Proceed components which lessened but did not remove the problems on less than ideal recordings. I haven't had a chance to hear the Thiels with tubes, but appropriate tube amps seem to be out of my price range (Audio Research VT200, Conrad Johnson Premier 12, VAC Renaissance, VTL MB-175 - the Thiels need lots of current for dynamics to stand out and taught bass).

Right now, I'm leaning towards buying the Thiel's, but would be happier/more comfortable if I could find the musicality and dynamics of the Thiels with more compliance towards recording quality and room environment. I suspect a darker sounding CD player (Rega Planet) or cables (MIT perhaps) would make the harsher passages easier, but I'm reluctant to choose components as a tone control compensation for my speakers. I'd probably go with Bryston 4B-ST, BP-25P, and either Naim CD 3.5 or CAL CL-15 cd players to accompany the Thiels. I'm hoping to also try Conrad Johnson MF2500 or McCormack DNA-1 amps, which might be less forward and slightly more detailed than the Bryston.

If you have suggestions on system matching to deal with these limitations or recommendation on other speakers which offer similar advantages with more flexibility, please email me from the link above (click on the name, Thanks in advance!). I enjoy the Thiels immensely most of the time and favor the approach of neutral speakers, but I would hate to have to relegate a significant portion of my music collection to my second system and require that good piano recordings be enjoyable (romantic piano is one of my favorite genres). I haven't had a chance to hear ProAcs or Audio Physics yet, which strike me as perhaps providing similar advantages though at a somewhat higher price.

Other speakers I've listened to a decent amount are: Linn AV 5140 (easy to listen to, very good bass, polite top end, not as detailed), Martin Logan SL3 (lots of detail and "air" around music, bass integrates poorly, can be harsh and fatiguing), Energy Veritas v2.8 (very natural, more laid back, slightly less detailed, pricey), Magneplanar 3.6/R (even better soundstaging/ambience than SL3 [haunting with Anonymous 4], bass rolled off, dynamics sound compressed, imposing), Meadowlark Shearwater (detailed, liquid, but somewhat laid back, bass goes low but doesn't integrate with music as well), Hales Revelation 3 (nice sounding, well balanced, fairly deep bass, but not the same league in detail or musicality).

Similar Products Used:

Meadowlark Shearwater, Magneplanar 3.6/R, Martin Logan SL3, Linn AV 5140, Hales Revelation 3, B&W Nautilus 803, Sonus Faber Concerto Grand Piano, Energy Veritas v2.8, several others

Incredible detail, linearity, presence, staging, recreation of musical event in your living room

Despite the apparent increase in sensitivity over previous models, you really do need serious current to drive these. Also they require a LONG break-in period. Bass is non-existant for the first hour or two, then it sounds like "one-note" bass for a few hours, finally it expands gloriously. PATIENCE REQUIRED AND REWARDED!

If you don't power these adequately, they will exhibit odd frequency balance. If you don't give them adequate breaking time, they will sound closed it without bass. If you power them with cheap electronics, you will HEAR the cheapness in the electronics.

BUT, where properly powered, broken in, positioned, on good quality gear, the sound is STUNNINGLY BEAUTIFUL.

My System:
Audible Illusions M3a
Conrad Johnson DV-2B cd player
Conrad Johnson 12 amp monoblocks
Basis 2001 / Rega 300B / Van Den Hull Frog
Sonic Frontiers Phono One
Cables by Cardas and Goertz.

By the way, the CJ 11a powered the 2.3 ok, but the 12's with twice the power are 10 times as good.

Similar Products Used:

I've owned many earlier Thiel models, including 1.5, 3.6, 04a, 1.2; have heard just about every other speaker you can name.

Soundstage, Midrange clarity, Neutral overal presentation.

Placement is critical. Long run in time.

I can understand why reviewers tend to sometimes describe these speakers as "bright", in my opinion it is not possible to get the best out of them in a review period because of the care needed with placement. I have owned my 2.3's for 6 months and I have only just started to really hear what thay can do.
When I first set them up they did sound bright and light in the bass but I stuck with them because I have heared their performance at a friends so I knew it was down to correct placement.I played with position (both speakers and furniture) and slowly I began to improve bass response, soundstaging and tonal clarity, it is amazing what a difference a slight toe in or 1-2 inch movement can make. I truly beleive that if everyone could hear these when correctly set up, there would be no contest!
I have always stuck with the same electronics, Musical Fidelity P270, Conrad Johnson PV10, Sony CD Player. Once the position is correct I don't beleive there is any other speaker to touch them (except the larger Thiels) they have it all, they are superb particularly on Jazz, Folk and Classical, I have had experience with the 2 2's and although they are also excellent, the 2.3 is faster and cleaner.
Don't give up when you get them home and they sound bright, 99% is down to position and I have found that closer positioning than I would expect has produced truly stunning results in my room. They now amaze me everytime I listen, sometimes I think "are these really the same speakers I took home? have I really got the same electronics?".
Just for your interest my room is 18' into bay x 13'4, I have a chimney breast on one of the long walls, the speakers are only 5'3 apart (insides of cabinet) firing down the long length of the room with the bay behind about 3'out, they are toed in about 1/2inch, I have carefully positioned furniture at the sides to soak up reflections, which made a massive difference in toning down bright reflections.
I highly recommend the 2.3 to anyone prepared to take the time to get the best from them!

Similar Products Used:

Thiel CS1.2, B&W Matrix 1E, Proac.

The Thiel 2.3 are very immpressive speakers. They replaced a pair of Thiel 1.5 in my system. They build upon the strength of the 1.5 (clarity, coherance, great sound stage) They give me everything the 1.5 can offer and the missing tight tuneful and powerful BASS that I found was the only thing I don't like about the 1.5. Soundstage and details are even better. I hear new detail and nuance in my system that I did not hear before after the speaker upgrade. The 2.3 also eliminate the ever so slight brightness in the lower treble/upper midrange that the 1.5 can produce with some recording. The 2.3 are very very transparent and neutral (I can not detect any coloration). Some of the reviewers commented about the 2.3 being bright. I would say the brightness is definitely coming from the component upstream and the 2.3 are simply reproduing them faithfully for you. These speakers take very very long time to be fully broken in (at least 300 to 400 hours). Make sure the speakers you audition have been very well broken in. I have my 2.3 for 15 months. One other thing about these speakers. If you want to get the bass reproduction from them, drive them with the best amp you can afford. It make a big difference. I used to drive them with a McCormack DNA0.5 Delux. The DNA 0.5 Delux gives decent sound quality and bass but the full potential of these speakers (I felt) was fully realized when I upgraded my amp to the Krell FBP 200.
Before buying these speakers, I did compare them with the Aerial 7B. The Thiel 2.3 sounded more cohearant and the bass is tighter.


System: MUSE model 8 transport, 296 DA converter, CAT SL-1 Ultimate, Krell FBP 200, Cardas Golden Cross, Cardas Golden Reference, Synergistic Reference AC Master Coupler and ESP Essence power cord. PS Audio P300

Wasn't a big audio enthuasist until about a week ago. I went over to my friend's apartment (Jeremy below!) and gave his system a listen. He's been raving about it for days, you know. Never believed in thousand plus dollar CD players, amps, speakers, etc. Thought audiphiles were just rich and delusional (I mean, what difference can actually be heard?!) Well, I was wrong ... dead wrong. I heard for the first time what an audio system SHOULD sound like. Too bad I can't afford it, but I'm now definately a believer and will be saving up for an "affordable" audiophile system. No more Bose and Sony's for me :) Jeremy told me to check out this site and to leave feedback if I wanted to. Well, here's 5 stars for the Thiels (what impressed me most of his sytem). Well deserved as it made me an audio "nut." Awesome forum!

I've owned a pair of CS 2.3's for ten months; here's what I've discovered to date. These speakers provide a very detailed sound, that makes careful system matching critical to maximizing your musical enjoyment. That said, I think the Thiels offer an exciting, uncolored musical presentation that is quite true to the original recorded performance, and very satisfying. The 2.3s deliver absolutely superb sound on male vocals. They also do justice to rock. To my ears, however, they do sound a little bit bright in the lower treble region, and this shows up with female vocals and some classical music. It's quite possible that the brightness I hear is largely due to my room which has no acoustic treatment.
When I bought the Thiels I listened to similarly priced products from Magnepan, Martin Logan, PSB, B&W, Aerial, Hales, Proac and others. All of these speakers are fine products, each with some significant strengths to recommend them, but I chose the Thiels. Here's why: the Thiels had the best octave to octave balance or the flatest response, for the size and price they produce generous bass (I can't live without real bass), as I said earlier the Thiels are superb with male vocals, and finally, the Thiels reproduce recordings musically and accurately. That's why I wanted speakers in the first place.

If your interested in speakers in this price range, I would certainly give the 2.3's a listen.

My system:

Rotel 971 CD player
Transparent interconnects
Transparant speaker cables
Krell KAV 500i integrated amp
Thiel CS 2.3 speakers